Track Night Report

Hi,

Thought I would share my thoughts from KH last night ( sorry no pics ).

We'll last night at KH was really good, first time on track and enjoyed just about every minute of it.

After my little off, I had thought it would be a really good chance to recover some confidence.

In the main I was riding ok, not being passed by many but still had an issue in my own mind and was compounded after a front end slide at the hairpin which set the scene for my riding all night after which a guy lost his front at hislops right in front of me not adding any positive feel to my tiny little mind.

I need to sort out my front end issue, whether it be in my head, whether I need to set the bike up to me or whether I need to change my riding style from last night.

I couldn't even get the wear on the rear tyre all the way across to the edge last night ( about 1cm off ) but my fronts are completely shot, something I can't understand. It's difficult to scrutinise your own riding positioning on the bike/style when thinking back. Was I too far back off the front preventing the weight being put on the front tyre (probably because I was nervous of losing the front), should I be putting all my weight to the front right/left of the bike ?

I felt the front scrubbing ( best way I can describe the feeling/ pushing me out to the kerb ) & was getting a lot of under steer ( or so it felt ) at the hairpin every time I was trying to start to power out. There were guy's entering & coming out of that hairpin a hell of a lot quicker than me.

I loved opening the bike up going along the two straights, up on the rear tyre three times every time I went up the straight on full throttle.

I really enjoyed the night but what came out of it was there is an issue at the front end which is being caused by one of three reasons,

1> My riding style / position on the bike
2> Me hearing little voices in my head
3> The bike (which I doubt)

My mate on his ZX10 has the same tyres and had no dramas what so ever, wear on rear all the way down & was tipping in with no problems. I ended up leaning over my self but holding the bike up nervously every time I had to negotiate the hairpin, "it was so frustrating".

I'm also now in need of some brakes, pads are gone. Had a couple of entries in to duffus where I was trying to find the anchor to throw off or parachute with the echo in my head shouting abandon ship !!!

Any suggestions or comments, thoughts on what could cause my front tyre to get eaten as badly as it has, why I felt like the tyre had no grip at the hairpin, scrubbing out when exiting. If you know KH circuit, the hairpin has a good positive camber up to the exit where it feels like it moves to a slight negative ( that's the point I having probs and causing me to enter much slower ).

Good night, I'll get back up once I've got new brakes but maybe try & speak with some experience to help me on the front issue.

The advanced group were all nut bars, way way WAY out of my league !!

There were also two new R1's there last night which couldn't finish the session due to oil consumption

I was a little surprised at that

Sounds good.
You need to get a book called "twist of the wrist" by Keith Code.
It covers and has answers for what you are describing above.

Book

Dont alter the machine at this early stage, leave it as is.

shadow wrote:Sounds good.
You need to get a book called "twist of the wrist" by Keith Code.
It covers and has answers for what you are describing above.

Book

Dont alter the machine at this early stage, leave it as is.

Ideal -

I'll nip on & buy that on my return.

I was getting really frustrated last night, still enjoyable but equally frustrating. My front tyre is really chewed up, my mates isn't that bad, both new 016's.

I'll probably try another few track nights to get used to the bike, hopefully sort out my front end bug's & then seek some advice. There wasn't really anyone at the track yesterday to ask

Any chance you could take a picture of the front tyre?

I'll get one taken tonight when I get home from work

Felt really uneasy on the front all night

Hi Kaiser , Is your suspension on std. settings ? this includes fork oil levels , pre-load , std springs, rear sag hieght , etc If this is out by loads it can upset your front end grip & weight transfere as you describe . Its better to start on std then make little adjustments log them & see if there's any improvement or worsening of the problem . Also as you suspect your body position & relaxed feel for the grip in cornering is crucial . How about some input from an instructor who's there & can see how your'e riding ? at any rate taking it easy till you know whats going wrong is a wise move mate .

High tyre wear and a feeling of the front slipping away point at suspension and tyre pressures to me.

But...

If you're feeling nervous about the front you (or certainly I) tend to tense up a lot. That means that you hold the steering far to rigidly and it can't react properly to the road. I don't know that would be enough to affect tyre wear but it's definitely enough to make the front constantly feel as though it's going to let go. It's a vicious circle too - the more you tense the worse it feels, the worse it feels the more you tense. You really can make a perfectly well handling bike lose the front just because of that.

Body position can be a big factor in that. New track riders often tend to twist on the bike, bum off the seat but head and shoulders still central or even high over the bike. This puts lots of extra load through the bars and upsets the front. You should have your head and body dropped low and into the corner which puts all your weight through your lower body instead of the bars. This explains it much better.

Hope you managed to enjoy your night anyway.

Rowley wrote:Hi Kaiser , Is your suspension on std. settings ? this includes fork oil levels , pre-load , std springs, rear sag hieght , etc If this is out by loads it can upset your front end grip & weight transfere as you describe . Its better to start on std then make little adjustments log them & see if there's any improvement or worsening of the problem . Also as you suspect your body position & relaxed feel for the grip in cornering is crucial . How about some input from an instructor who's there & can see how your'e riding ? at any rate taking it easy till you know whats going wrong is a wise move mate .

Hi there,

Ye, the bike is set up as standard, nothing changed at all.

I may we'll get to the point of an instructor but have been riding quick enough to this point all be it not in track conditions. I fear my little off has had a psychological impact that I'll just need to deal with and monitor the bike.

Tazfiend wrote:High tyre wear and a feeling of the front slipping away point at suspension and tyre pressures to me.

But...

If you're feeling nervous about the front you (or certainly I) tend to tense up a lot. That means that you hold the steering far to rigidly and it can't react properly to the road. I don't know that would be enough to affect tyre wear but it's definitely enough to make the front constantly feel as though it's going to let go. It's a vicious circle too - the more you tense the worse it feels, the worse it feels the more you tense. You really can make a perfectly well handling bike lose the front just because of that.

Body position can be a big factor in that. New track riders often tend to twist on the bike, bum off the seat but head and shoulders still central or even high over the bike. This puts lots of extra load through the bars and upsets the front. You should have your head and body dropped low and into the corner which puts all your weight through your lower body instead of the bars. This explains it much better.

Hope you managed to enjoy your night anyway.

I probably was quite tense and would think I kept going through the same cycle every time I entered that hairpin. I just felt like I was scrubbing the front and had no confidence to get any more lean or speed through the corner. I was pathetically slow through that one corner, every time.

I felt like I was getting my body off the bike better in the last session but I was holding the bike up instead of getting more lean angle, again due to my feeling at the front.

I'll have a good listen to the video when I get home.

Thanks for your help again mate

Did have a good night, just got some things to adjust, learn and adpat

I hated the hairpin for ages, couldn't get it together at all at first. I still prefer fast corners to slow ones.

I initially thought duffus would have been my achilles heal but that proved to be ok, I think my entry speed was roughly 80+ MPH but hard to tell. Probably could have been quicker but I was trying to stay within my own limitations until I start to ride better, or at least back to how I was.

The main issue was the hairpin but had small issues with hislops as well (similar type corner positive to negative camber). Not sure if there's anything in that but felt the front didn't like that.

I enjoyed the back staright if you can call it a staright. 3rd gear, full throttle. Was flying round there.

Dissapointed I didn't even manage the tyre wear to be down to the edge

I think you might mean Clark (now Carlube, sheesh)? The right hander over a gentle brow onto the back straight? Hislop's is the back straight up to the hairpin.

Clark is another of my favourites, because it's a great overtaking place. The trick is to hang out on the left quite late. In Novice and Inters you'll find most people turn in early, have to stay off throttle for ages pushing the front all the way to the exit. Turn in late and take a later apex and you can get on the throttle much ealier. The front will feel much more confident too (for me at least).

As for the tyre, if you're hanging off properly you can be a chunk faster than people riding right off the edge of their tyres without ever approaching the edge of yours. Chicken strips are not a great measure of corner speed.

Tazfiend wrote:Chicken strips are not a great measure of corner speed.

Very true that.

Tazfiend wrote:I think you might mean Clark (now Carlube, sheesh)? The right hander over a gentle brow onto the back straight? Hislop's is the back straight up to the hairpin.

Clark is another of my favourites, because it's a great overtaking place. The trick is to hang out on the left quite late. In Novice and Inters you'll find most people turn in early, have to stay off throttle for ages pushing the front all the way to the exit. Turn in late and take a later apex and you can get on the throttle much ealier. The front will feel much more confident too (for me at least).

Sorry - Ye, that's the corner I mean. I can see that if taken correctly & in teh correct mind set it would be a blinding corner but teh whole issue at the front of the bike for me last night prevented me really doing much in terms of throttling out or even really driving the corner the way you should.

I'm hoping to get a couple of times before the weather breaks to try & get used to the track and that whole environment. It's immensely enjoyable, but I want to get more out of it by learning and the only way to learn I would suggest is track/bike time.

Tazfiend wrote:As for the tyre, if you're hanging off properly you can be a chunk faster than people riding right off the edge of their tyres without ever approaching the edge of yours. Chicken strips are not a great measure of corner speed.

I was probably guilty of the latter. I was holding the bike up & picking it up out of the corners etc. (hope you understand what I'm trying to describe). I was just affraid to lean the bike any further through the hairpin or indeed Carlube

shadow wrote:

Tazfiend wrote:Chicken strips are not a great measure of corner speed.

Very true that.

Was quicker than most down duffus and up through the chicane but still wasn't pushing that front hard, or trying not to

Maybe a Nial MacKenzie session would help. The only issue I have with it is the price at this particular juncture. (just moved in to our new house)

My very first day was a Niall McKenzie day, and I learned lots from it. It was pricey though.

Just getting more time is good. Building up progressively, avoiding putting pressure on yourself, things start to come good. Concentrate on lines more than speed (I should take my own advice here) and the rest comes.

If you were carrying more speed than most Novices into Duffus you're probably getting your tyres well heated. Did you drop the pressures? If you're going fast and you don't you can over pressure them and that won't help with it feeling nervous as your contact patch is reduced.

Was passing a number of bikes entering duffus, was my number one passing point with the grunt from the bike up the straight therefore being quicker than most & late braking, entry speed, everything was ideal.

I didn't drop any pressures in the first session but the second & third I dropped the front by only 2psi at the very most, no more than 2psi.

My mate in his ZX has the same tyres & the pressures remained unchanged throught all three sessions and without any of the issues I was experiencing.Although his fronts are no where near as worn as mine.

And how cold were your tyres when you dropped those 2psi?

If you're running a good pace I personally would drop more. But it is very personal and approaching it gently is the way to go.

I was running at a reasonable pace. It may well have been that I needed to reduce the pressure a good bit more but was trying to stay quite conservative.

There were three bikes quicker than me, one new blade a ZX10 and my mate on his ZX, but I lost so much ground over the two corners it was scary !!

Tyres were sitting half way through the Advaced guy's 20 mins roughly so were probably cold when I took a couple of psi out of them.

It's the frustration that I felt that's annoying, wondering why, what to do different, what was causing my problem's ?

My heads spinning with it all.

Think less and enjoy more! With your head buzzing the way it is it is more than difficult to relax.

Every time I go to that track I try and reach a medative state before I go on. I relax each muscle group one at a time ane take several very deep breaths. Once I have done all this I am ready to approach the track properly and with the correct mix of control and finess.

I then follow the pace car round and fully intend to build up gradually.

Then as soon as the car dissapears I forget all that cr*p and go bonkers!!! I tense up immediately, go far to fast into the corners and scare myself silly.

Best intentions and all that eh?

black wrote:Think less and enjoy more! With your head buzzing the way it is it is more than difficult to relax.

Every time I go to that track I try and reach a medative state before I go on. I relax each muscle group one at a time ane take several very deep breaths. Once I have done all this I am ready to approach the track properly and with the correct mix of control and finess.

I then follow the pace car round and fully intend to build up gradually.

Then as soon as the car dissapears I forget all that cr*p and go bonkers!!! I tense up immediately, go far to fast into the corners and scare myself silly.

Best intentions and all that eh?

Nice one mate.

black wrote:Then as soon as the car dissapears I forget all that cr*p and go bonkers!!! I tense up immediately, go far to fast into the corners and scare myself silly.

Best intentions and all that eh?

Think everyone who's been on track has done that.

Good point though. Sometimes the best thing that you can do is just stop worrying about it and enjoy yourself.

Kaiser, if you're worried about your sussies maybe contact Bob Grant Racing at Knockhill and ask them to do a set up for you. If nothing else it should put your mind at ease that nothing is badly wrong. And if you're already running near the front of Novice I'd drop more than a couple of psi out of your tyres next time.

I am definetaly talking from experience here. Not many people can claim to crash on the warm up lap while trying to catch a pace car. lol

In my defense, they dont hang around do they?

Superb !!

Ye, Taz I might just do that. As much as I think something is up with the front I'm not doubting for a second a lot is psychological and between the two I can't relax and therefore I couldn't enjoy or get as much out of the full night as I would like. The hairpin & Carlube should be a joy but instead I draeded these parts every time I reached them

Appreciate your patience, help & suggestion mate

I've only got access on my blackberry until my broadband is installed so I'm finiding it difficult to put pictures up.

Do you have an e-mail address I can send a pic of the front tyre to ?

The picture is not the greatest and again may not even be as bad as an experienced track day rider would see but my direct comparison is my mates front on his ZX. Same tyre, both new and the difference at the front is huge.

The picture doesn't really show just how much wear there is on the outer edge.

Suspension is a bit of a black art, and the pros can make a huge difference to your bike.

black wrote:I am definetaly talking from experience here. Not many people can claim to crash on the warm up lap while trying to catch a pace car. lol

If it's any comfort I've seen one of Knockhill's own boys, on one of their own fully kitted track bikes, drop it going through Duffus behind the pace car straight out of the pits!

Come to that at Cadwell last month someone dumped it in the very first corner out the pits - they were trying the violent weaving technique to warm up their tyres (and I think conclusively proved it's a bad idea).